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Thursday, 10 November 2016

Claimants, complainants and their VICTIMS

The title I partly drew from Henriques Report which, amongst other things, suggests that those who make claims about others, should be referred to as complainants and not victims, in the first instance that is. No such rule appears to apply to the, cast in stone, victims of Sir Jimmy Savile, but that's another story, today I'm concerned with this one, and boy am I glad Karin Ward wrote this book. Yes really, I am 
The book is a continuance of Ms Ward's previous missives but with a twist. This one contains FACTS, things we know for sure actually happened. The most important of these being this !


 Here are extracts from Ward's book - enjoy 

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Chapter two begins where Ms Ward's miseries apparently began, where the heart should be that is
 Not being liked appears to have been a life-long occupation for Ms Ward, but I digress, back to court. Now here's where things get real interesting, because here is where we first see published Susan's testimony and, in some ways more importantly, Wards reaction to seeing her again so many years later






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Ward, it didn't actually remember just HOW Jimmy Savile managed to arrive at Duncroft School bearing gifts, until Susan revealed all from the witness stand 




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Now, let's hold it right there shall we ? You see, I know that Susan related this story of how Jimmy Savile lay beside Susan on a bed and masturbated, because I was there in court as the lawyers made a big deal about it in the closing speeches. I never mentioned this before but I surely would have done had I heard the rest of the story which actually corroborates what I've always believed, that Jimmy would not have forced himself on anyone, let alone a young woman in an altered state of awareness. 

The words I heard were that he lay 'behind' her. Now, why should he miss an opportunity as good as this if he was the monster who spent every waking minute thinking of abusing young girls ?

If it doesn't make sense, it isn't true ! 

To be continued !

29 comments:

  1. I'm humming an old tune to myself...
    https://youtu.be/eRZ_7lt7C6U

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    1. Jealous ? Yes they obviously were !

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    2. It seems a bit shabby that poor old Jim was being exposed in this way, especially as he was led to believe she was old enough to consent. But how trusting that he then would visit that school. I guess he would have never guessed what they all knew about him.... Poor sod.

      "The Beguiled" may not be so far off the mark, albeit they waited until he was dead before they murdered him.
      https://youtu.be/n47_BZ2pj5U

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    3. Especially when you remember those crucial words Ward spoke in her first/second version of her memoir ... paraphrase - 'I didn't see it as abuse at the time' ... !

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    4. but that would be to assume she ever got near to him. Jimmy described his first sexual experiences in a train. Imagine all these gals with a head full of Bunce's stories and reading about Savile being blown off by a big girl in 3rd Class..... the dormitory must have been dripping with hormonal fantasy. I can imagine that Jimmy wasn't the onlty one masturbating back then.

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    5. Quite, I think you're right. All that admiring Susan from a distance too ! She certainly attended Clunk Click but anything else ... V doubtful I'd say ! WOW

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    6. and bear in mind, Justice Nicol, in the Starr case remarked that he fully believed Susan, that Jimmy had always behaved as a perfect gentleman with her. How does that fit with the story about Jimmy masturbating? It can only be that the Judge accepted that Savile had good reason to believe Susan was of age; in exactly the same way as that Dragons Den guy was found not guilty, even though the girl was as young as 13.

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    7. Sorry, when did Justice Nicol say that ? He didn't say that while I was there ??

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    8. My memory is that it was said within the BAILI reportage. It may be that that was what he wrote in his judgement, rather than said in court.

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    9. My memory is that Susan has always maintained that Jimmy behaved like a gentleman and she may have said this to the Judge (see Judgement). A fact corroborated by her claims he looked after her, showing concern for her drug taking etc. Who do we believe ? Well, I definitely don't believe any word that comes out of Ward's mouth unless it's cited in a court decision on oath

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    10. Yes, I appear to have conflated the Judge's comments in 110 viii ... It's a story reminiscent to that told on the Anna Raccoon blog about Bunce and Savile.....

      "Susan Bunce was a small 15 year old. He picked her up, held her in the air and gave her a long passionate kiss. Later in the evening he offered to drive her home. There was, according to Ms Bunce, a conversation about her age in which she allowed the Claimant to believe that she was 18."

      Not quite sure what this means, other than that I had a false memory.

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    11. Moor, you may be mixing up the Judge & the Dame; Smith accepted that Savile had behaved like a gent with Susan (er, at least that's what my own fallible memory tells me).

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    12. That sounds right, thanks. But I am a bit troubled now about this Susan Bunce story. She's telling the same story about Freddie Starr practically. Not sure she's any more reliable than Karin. Don't recall anything about masturbation and the Dame... surely Mistress Smith wouldn't have made that comment if Susan had tol her Jimmy was spanking off behind her or wherever. I'm finding this supposedly "friendly witness" not so credible anymore.

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    13. OMG - I'm NOT reading that bloody report AGAIN to see if the dame mentioned masturbation. However, the following was included in the Raccoon blog - no link sorry easy enough to find if you want

      This was about the time my mild dose of LSD was kicking in. Yes! Mr Savile was getting fresh but stopped when I mentioned the flowers coming out of the pretty wallpaper. He stood up and adjusted the zip on his trousers. At this point he had probably clicked that I had taken something unless he thought I was mad? “

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    14. Rabbit, just to be clear, you were in court and you remember Susan's stating in evidence BOTH that Savile lay on the bed beside/behind her AND that he masturbated?

      Anna Raccoon in her Origins of Savilisation Part One reports that Savile was 'visibly sexually excited', which could just about be claimed to cover the same behaviour but stops an awfully long way short of making it clear.

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    15. Yes, I was in court but Not for Susan's testimony. It was in the closing remarks that this was mentioned. I must dig out my notes

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    16. To be clear, the story was related as an attack on Jimmy. I distinctly remember how the speaker used it as an example of his bad character; here was a 47 year old man lying on a bed with an underage girl, etc.

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  2. Full judgement here
    https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/starr-v-ward-judgment.pdf

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  3. OK folks, just found my notes from court. David Price (for Ward) is attempting to discredit Susan's evidence. Here are the actual words used, I know this because I've put comma's around them -
    '.. him masturbating behind her, she doesn't see that as inappropriate'
    Next - no comma's so not sure if it's verbatim, but it more or less is what was said.
    Her refers to her as a 'Savile denier' - remember that one folks ? The reason Savile backed off was drugs, not her age. To her and all Savile deniers, this case is really about Savile ... Karin Ward is the poster girl for Savile.
    Mmm, he got that bit right at least !

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    1. Sorry, Rabbit. I'd not noted that you said you were there for closing speeches. I don't suppose we have any way to go back and check what was actually said in evidence anyway. Seems hard to imagine what this all had to do with Starr vs Ward.

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    2. I assume everyone knows that Price is currently litigating a £900k suit against the BBC, on behalf of Ward.

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    3. I didn't know (or didn't remember) that, Moor. I seem to be struggling to keep up. Must try harder.

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    4. https://twitter.com/lawyersmedia/status/788723668025303040?lang=en

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  4. In my book I note all four witnesses as unreliable. Susan, Karin, Witness C and Freddie Starr. There is nothing apart from a most likely genuine film clip and a very likely correct identification of Freddie Starr and Karin Ward. Apart from a clear agreement from those connected with Duncroft from all sides that Theo drove the girls to Clunk Click (The most reliable corroborated evidence of the whole Duncroft affair apart from the evidence Jimmy Savile went to the school - photos etc). The real conclusion from all this is the girls were clearly monitored at all times (a second staff member) So the attics described were "highly unlikely" and all very exaggerated stories no matter who was telling them. Nor did the defence in all their clear evidence of the risque evidence of Freddie's character which he acknowledged have anything showing him kissing a young teenager and so on. I see Karin has written very well in the related passages. She is definitely clever. But I strongly recommend that testimony without anything consistent is the most unreliable. And the agreed items indicate that logistically the girls would of been moved along smartly to the waiting van. Maybe a quick visit to the changing rooms who knows but the type of school the second staff member(or both staff members) would be accompanying them.

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    1. I fear that's right on the money, John. I see little prospect of people giving reliable accounts of events so long ago. If they seemed insignificant at the time, they may not have been recalled for such a long time that any hazy recollection can only be filled in by inference; if they seemed significant, they have probably been recalled (or retold) so many times that they're about as reliable as Chinese whispers. I wonder whether Miss Theobold has any recollection of the trip. Or whether anyone has bothered to ask her.

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    2. Dame Smith asked her, but dismissed her story on the basis that she was only a junior member of staff.

      https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-r8osU5UK-2E/VtS3sqNdWJI/AAAAAAAAJbE/6c_aN0_O3_g/s1600/image002.jpg

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    3. Sorry again, Rabbit. I should have remembered that. I recall wondering how DJS could so lightly dismiss her.

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    4. I'm not Rabbit... I only say that for the sake of the public out there, that may think conspiracy.... lolZ

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    5. I seem to be struggling, Moor...hallucinating, perhaps.

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